It's already fun to see some of the substantive dialog happening in the comments here about movements of God in the first two hours since this article posted. I'll keep tracking with it as I can this week.
I'm old enough to have been influenced by revivalism, and have bought into other movements, including the attempt to renew the civic primacy of the Judeo-Christian ethos through politics. The only comment I have is that if we see any movement that is really of God here it will be proceeded by humilty. That probably reflects my revivalistic bias, but doesn't have to lean towards that. Great post! Thank you.
I answered the poll reluctantly. I don't want it to be true, but I see the US political movement as having the most influence on the church in America (at least in the white evangelical American church). After answering the poll, I saw how many people agree. It is so disheartening.
I've been reflecting quite a bit on that "church leadership career" point recently and the opportunities that have come my way. I'm reminded of that old "Fishless Fisherman Fellowship" illustration about the groups of fishermen who sit around and talk about fishing and strategize about fishing and then that one guy who just decides to go fishing! :) Thanks for the post! It helped confirm some things I've been feeling.
Hey brother--ya know, that fisherman fellowship satire is perhaps one of the best things ever written--it really sticks in the brain for me too.
I will say, brother, since I live local with you and have seen you live it out... I am so grateful for the way you "just go fishing" all the time, even though you train others to do the same all over the place.
“ I'm not saying that means we shouldn't want a movement of God, I'm just saying that it often seems like we want God's new movement to fit into our current lives and careers, and that's often not how it looks. I’ve noticed that those claiming they are a part of a movement of God always plan for their own job and their own organization to be a vital and well-funded part of the movement. Funny how that works, right?”
I am reminded of Henry Blackaby's statement in "Experiencing God," that "God is already at work around us." Our work is to recognize, and join him in the work that he is already doing. I believe that movement is happening somewhere, among some people. As I read, I too am reminded that we must be willing to sacrifice our own comfort for God's movement. Our aim should not be to preserve our jobs/income, but trust the God who provides. What is our response if God reveals that we are seeking to place "new wine" in "old wineskins?" Would we relinquish the comfort of a "glorious" past for the sake of continuing God's mission in the world? What if the call, ultimately, is to a new movement that looks markedly dissimilar from the old? My prayer is that the answer is a resounding "yes!" I pray that we would all willingly, if not excitedly, decrease so that the work of our Lord might increase. Not our will, but God's will be done. Spirit-led humility must always guide our efforts. Thanks by brother! Your words, and writings, are always on point! You keep us thinking...and that is a good thing!
Thanks friend, for the note. Well said here and I would almost EXPECT the "markedly dissimilar from the old" effect you mention. The Spirit is likely to keep us on our toes!
Thoughtful questions. I would encourage you to read the new book Doctrine, Spirit and Discipline, A History of the Wesleyan Tradition in the United States by Kevin Watson. It traces doctrinal choices made and how that has shaped the "Wesleyan" movement in the United States. What I like about the book is that it helps me understand where "we" fit in the broader picture and the choices/movements that got us there.
Really helpful. This reinforces one of the most important questions about movement: how the heck do you define movement and know it when you see one? Inevitably, we have to be able to add a degree of metrics to the conversation which turns a lot of people off. But while you will never see movement if you are chasing numbers, you will never recognize movement unless you are tracking numbers - what's working? how much is it working? why is it working? how long is it working? what does "working" even mean? Wesley put so much emphasis on conversions, I think, for this very reason. When about 1/3 of our churches each year report 0 conversions, it's easy to see what's not working and what movement is not! Thanks for the dialogue Dave...it is really helpful.
Great to know, Billy. Glad y'all sparked this dialog, and it will be great to keep it rolling. All those many questions you just listed are important ones I think you're already addressing in your series at A Loyal Disruption.
I really appreciate all you’ve shared here—especially the thread throughout that a true movement of God’s Spirit isn’t about “me” or “my tribe,” and yet I am called to live faithfully now, whether or not there are signs of movement around me. I find it ironic and interesting that movement isn’t about me, yet only I can decide to become a willing, movable piece in God’s hands. Doesn’t a movement of God really amount to many individual followers of Jesus simultaneously allowing God to move THEM? There are always surrendered folk being moved by God for the sake of His Kingdom. To be moved is to be uprooted… to experience significant change and disorientation… to leave things behind and adventure with Holy Spirit into the unknown. To be moved is to be uncomfortable and face uncertain challenges. To be moved is to experience loss that the Kingdom may gain. And when many of God’s people become movable at the same junction in human history, a domino effect occurs that is beautifully orchestrated by the Great Mover Himself. No matter what others are experiencing, I believe God will move those who are willing to be moved. So may I (we) be mobile and flexible, malleable and surrendered, holding all things with open hands stretched out to Him. The rest we leave to God!
Amber, thank you for your inspiring thoughts and reflections. I deeply resonate with a movement of God “amount to many individual followers of Jesus simultaneously allowing God to move them”. I believe that this might mean it is happening way before it is seen. (Or can be happening.) Therefore we can join in now, by following Jesus with our whole heart, serving without the notice of others, in our neighborhoods, our communities, our domains. Perhaps a movement of the Spirit can begin without organization. Chaos theory tells us that organization of something new comes out of chaos. (Indeed that is the creation story.) So the chaos for us might actually be lead by the Spirit, and we can be a part of that by just being those faithful followers of Jesus today, and let the Spirit shape that chaos into the new creation the Spirit desires. Wow, this seems to require so much grace and so much focus on Jesus!
Thanks again David and Amber for these thoughts and I appreciate so much the heart and vision you both express!
It's already fun to see some of the substantive dialog happening in the comments here about movements of God in the first two hours since this article posted. I'll keep tracking with it as I can this week.
I'm old enough to have been influenced by revivalism, and have bought into other movements, including the attempt to renew the civic primacy of the Judeo-Christian ethos through politics. The only comment I have is that if we see any movement that is really of God here it will be proceeded by humilty. That probably reflects my revivalistic bias, but doesn't have to lean towards that. Great post! Thank you.
Thanks for this perspective and wisdom John
I answered the poll reluctantly. I don't want it to be true, but I see the US political movement as having the most influence on the church in America (at least in the white evangelical American church). After answering the poll, I saw how many people agree. It is so disheartening.
:-(
Yeah it is disheartening
"There is nothing quite so deadly to mainstream church jobs than a new movement of the Holy Spirit." 💀
I've been reflecting quite a bit on that "church leadership career" point recently and the opportunities that have come my way. I'm reminded of that old "Fishless Fisherman Fellowship" illustration about the groups of fishermen who sit around and talk about fishing and strategize about fishing and then that one guy who just decides to go fishing! :) Thanks for the post! It helped confirm some things I've been feeling.
Hey brother--ya know, that fisherman fellowship satire is perhaps one of the best things ever written--it really sticks in the brain for me too.
I will say, brother, since I live local with you and have seen you live it out... I am so grateful for the way you "just go fishing" all the time, even though you train others to do the same all over the place.
“ I'm not saying that means we shouldn't want a movement of God, I'm just saying that it often seems like we want God's new movement to fit into our current lives and careers, and that's often not how it looks. I’ve noticed that those claiming they are a part of a movement of God always plan for their own job and their own organization to be a vital and well-funded part of the movement. Funny how that works, right?”
😳
sorry, not sorry ;-)
Wow. This was exciting to read! Truly thought provoking.
Good to know man
I am reminded of Henry Blackaby's statement in "Experiencing God," that "God is already at work around us." Our work is to recognize, and join him in the work that he is already doing. I believe that movement is happening somewhere, among some people. As I read, I too am reminded that we must be willing to sacrifice our own comfort for God's movement. Our aim should not be to preserve our jobs/income, but trust the God who provides. What is our response if God reveals that we are seeking to place "new wine" in "old wineskins?" Would we relinquish the comfort of a "glorious" past for the sake of continuing God's mission in the world? What if the call, ultimately, is to a new movement that looks markedly dissimilar from the old? My prayer is that the answer is a resounding "yes!" I pray that we would all willingly, if not excitedly, decrease so that the work of our Lord might increase. Not our will, but God's will be done. Spirit-led humility must always guide our efforts. Thanks by brother! Your words, and writings, are always on point! You keep us thinking...and that is a good thing!
Thanks friend, for the note. Well said here and I would almost EXPECT the "markedly dissimilar from the old" effect you mention. The Spirit is likely to keep us on our toes!
Thoughtful questions. I would encourage you to read the new book Doctrine, Spirit and Discipline, A History of the Wesleyan Tradition in the United States by Kevin Watson. It traces doctrinal choices made and how that has shaped the "Wesleyan" movement in the United States. What I like about the book is that it helps me understand where "we" fit in the broader picture and the choices/movements that got us there.
great recommendation... i've read some of Watson and he's GREAT
Really helpful. This reinforces one of the most important questions about movement: how the heck do you define movement and know it when you see one? Inevitably, we have to be able to add a degree of metrics to the conversation which turns a lot of people off. But while you will never see movement if you are chasing numbers, you will never recognize movement unless you are tracking numbers - what's working? how much is it working? why is it working? how long is it working? what does "working" even mean? Wesley put so much emphasis on conversions, I think, for this very reason. When about 1/3 of our churches each year report 0 conversions, it's easy to see what's not working and what movement is not! Thanks for the dialogue Dave...it is really helpful.
Great to know, Billy. Glad y'all sparked this dialog, and it will be great to keep it rolling. All those many questions you just listed are important ones I think you're already addressing in your series at A Loyal Disruption.
I really appreciate all you’ve shared here—especially the thread throughout that a true movement of God’s Spirit isn’t about “me” or “my tribe,” and yet I am called to live faithfully now, whether or not there are signs of movement around me. I find it ironic and interesting that movement isn’t about me, yet only I can decide to become a willing, movable piece in God’s hands. Doesn’t a movement of God really amount to many individual followers of Jesus simultaneously allowing God to move THEM? There are always surrendered folk being moved by God for the sake of His Kingdom. To be moved is to be uprooted… to experience significant change and disorientation… to leave things behind and adventure with Holy Spirit into the unknown. To be moved is to be uncomfortable and face uncertain challenges. To be moved is to experience loss that the Kingdom may gain. And when many of God’s people become movable at the same junction in human history, a domino effect occurs that is beautifully orchestrated by the Great Mover Himself. No matter what others are experiencing, I believe God will move those who are willing to be moved. So may I (we) be mobile and flexible, malleable and surrendered, holding all things with open hands stretched out to Him. The rest we leave to God!
Well said and inspiring!
Amber, thank you for your inspiring thoughts and reflections. I deeply resonate with a movement of God “amount to many individual followers of Jesus simultaneously allowing God to move them”. I believe that this might mean it is happening way before it is seen. (Or can be happening.) Therefore we can join in now, by following Jesus with our whole heart, serving without the notice of others, in our neighborhoods, our communities, our domains. Perhaps a movement of the Spirit can begin without organization. Chaos theory tells us that organization of something new comes out of chaos. (Indeed that is the creation story.) So the chaos for us might actually be lead by the Spirit, and we can be a part of that by just being those faithful followers of Jesus today, and let the Spirit shape that chaos into the new creation the Spirit desires. Wow, this seems to require so much grace and so much focus on Jesus!
Thanks again David and Amber for these thoughts and I appreciate so much the heart and vision you both express!
We can join in NOW! Yes, I love that!!!!!!
Just saw your neat news of joining IWU and your husband joining Slingshot. Godspeed!
Thank you!!!
Great takes here, Verne. The movement is happening! Be faithful now!
I should note that "A Loyal Disruption" now has another post up. On Accountability this time.
Here it is:
https://aloyaldisruption.substack.com/p/pillar-3-ongoing-accountability